Hbp - What Did You Think?, Spoilers within Options

[cranberry27]

I LOVED IT! This book was fantastic. Heck, I'm back on a message board because of it! Hi Imogen Rich loves the hubby's theory. H/G and R/H were just fantastic - just enough to promise me that all is well.

Don't want to even pretend these excellent ideas are mine, so I'll just give the link to a LiveJournal with some great theories. Between my fiance and I, we had a lot of these ideas, but the whole thing is tied together nicely.

One of the ideas, in short, is that Dumbledore told Snape to kill him in the moment that they stared at each other, since the potion was killing him already. That makes this quote make a lot more sense to me:

QUOTE

‘Don’t--’ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them--‘CALL ME COWARD!’ (p. 604)

If he were really just a horrible guy running from the scene of the crime, I feel like he wouldn't have been this way. Maybe he would have yelled at Harry, or taunted him, but what he said didn't sit right with me. If it's true, he's going to have a VERY hard time clearing his name. Might give him some sympathy for Sirius.

[hershey]

Have finally finished reading and will share a few thoughts before dashing off to bed.

First, had strong suspicions that Dumbledore was the one to die by about 2/3 of the way through the book and that Snape would be the one to kill him. JKR really paved the way on this for me with the "unbreakable vow" line. Also interviews on morning television with young people who didn't reveal any details but were visibly shocked when discussing the book. JKR was intereviewed on the Today Show this am and she stated that going into Book 7 Harry would be driven by revenge. What better to fill his cup of vengence that the death of his mentor.

Second, I am not falling for the Dumbledore being duped by Snape. "The greatest wizard that ever was" fooled by Snivellus, I think not.

I think Snape didn't know what Draco's assignment was to be, but felt compelled to make the vow to protect his duel "allegiance". When he discoved what was to be he confided in Dumbledore who insisted he follow through, hence the argument the two shared.

I concur that Dumbledore knew his time was running short, hence his concentrated focus on teaching Harry all he could about Voldemort.

Horcruxes, soul splitting - BRILLIANT!

Am off to the land of cheese to help Grandma pack for a few days with the crew. She has sold her house finally. Will have chance there to revise and return with more comments to share.

Must sleep now,
Hershey

[USMCDevilDog]

Dumbledore was the greatest wizard, but he was still a human. Humans make mistakes.

Snivellus is a traitor. In order to use the Avada Kedavra you have to enjoy killing, according to Bellatrix. But something was odd this time. When the AK is used, the victim just falls dead. Dumbledore was blasted in the air, before he fell, and he was bleeding from his mouth. Is it something to be noted?

[Drie]

QUOTE (USMCDevilDog @ Jul 19 2005, 06:26 AM)

Dumbledore was the greatest wizard, but he was still a human. Humans make mistakes. Snivellus is a traitor. In order to use the Avada Kedavra you have to enjoy killing, according to Bellatrix. But something was odd this time. When the AK is used, the victim just falls dead. Dumbledore was blasted in the air, before he fell, and he was bleeding from his mouth. Is it something to be noted?

Actually, I believed this as well until I just chatted with Hershey on the phone. She mentioned that Dumbledore and Snape may have used legimins (sp...don't have the time to look it up, sorry!) and that Dumbledore may have forced Snape to cast the killing curse. It's an interesting theory. I'm kind of on the fence about Snape right now.

[Jerry]

Oh, where to start, where to start...

Oh, dear. I think I'm the only one here who actually did not like HBP, for reasons I'll explain later on.

First of all, I think it's clear that H/G, R/H, T/R (That's Tonks/Remus), and B/P (Bill/Phlegm ) are set. Tonks's and Remus's discussion was clearly written, the scene in the hospital wing between Mrs. Weasley and Fleur was pretty straightforward, the attraction between Harry and Ginny and the desire to protect each other was unequivocal (Incidentally, did anyone have to read the scenes involving Harry and Ginny twice to convince themselves that it wasn't fanfiction, but canon?) and there was enough tension between Ron and Hermione to fill every barrel and container in the world (presuming, of course, that tension can be turned to liquid).

Now onto the characters:

Rufus Scrimgeour: I didn't like him. He's way more keen and discerning than Fudge was, and knows what Dark wizards and their capabilites are, but he still insists on making Harry into the ministry mascot. (I liked Harry's retorts very much ) But, I think he will change in the final book. For the better.

Horace Slughorn: A great character. He may be into important connections and royalty and things like that, but he was tremendously valuable to Harry and Dumbledore as we all read. I have a feeling that he'll be staying next year and teach potions, and I'm absolutely certain he will assist Harry directly in the battle against Voldemort in the final book. I felt an instant connection to him. (Though if he would've just been a bit more suspicious and not have told Riddle about the horcruxes...)

Marvolo Gaunt: Nutter. A person that treats Muggles and Muggle-lovers as vermin is never seen as sane, IMHO. Well, turns out he was Voldemort's grandfather, so what do you expect?

Tom Riddle: As expected. Displaying extraordinary magical ability, alertness, and intelligence. JKR did a marvelous job of describing himself, his actions, and his thoughts. Naturally, I've felt nothing but loathing towards him, even at the orphanage. I'm sure we all did.

R.A.B. Two people I can think of, though without full initials. Regulus Black and Ali Bashir. It's left to speculating from there.

Albus Dumbledore A.K.A. The Only One He Ever Feared: I think that in 'The Cave' he displayed more inner strength and power than during his duel with Voldemort the previous year. Now, back to why I dislike HBP; I think it's the most profound and complex book of the series, but I can't remove the memory of Dumbledore dying. I think that that was what caused me to dislike the book so much. To see someone who you revere become so frail and vulnerable is extremely dissuading. Also, from the moment Harry saw his blackened and dead fingers, coupled with the incessant rumors before the release of HBP that this would be the last year for Dumbledore, I was sure he would die by the end of the book. It's Harry on his own now. Just Harry and Voldemort.

The Half-Blood Prince A.K.A. Severus Snape: He's on our side, and has killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's wishes. I strongly support the theory that the potion that Dumbledore drank caused him to become a horcrux, and that Dumbledore wanted to be killed to aid in the destruction of Voldemort. I can't help but support rdehwyll's theory regarding this. HBP is a complete setup. I read and reread 'Spinner's End' and 'Flight of the Prince' and came up to this conclusion. I hate Snape more than ever for doing this, but I find it easier to believe that he has hoodwinked (and still is hoodwinking) Voldemort than hoodwink Dumbledore. (Of course, this leads to more speculating!) If he is indeed, on our side, I don't think anyone can appreciate his sacrifice and bravery. He's defying the Dark Lord, and he is shunned from the Light. For the first time in the Harry Potter series, I see him in a different light. A favorable one. It is my belief that Harry and Snape will work together to defeat Voldemort, but unknown to each other. Snape will die, but Harry will live. One last thing: By the chapter 'The Half-blood Prince' I've narrrowed it down to Snape or Tom Riddle (not Voldemort, but Riddle). I'm curious if anyone else thought that Riddle was also the Half-Blood Prince at first...?

All in all, it was a great book, but I can't help feeling a strange emptiness after concluding it. I have a peculiar feeling I won't pick the book up again...

But it was definitely worth the wait!

Jerry,

[Drie]

QUOTE (Jerry @ Jul 19 2005, 01:22 PM)

One last thing: By the chapter 'The Half-blood Prince' I've narrrowed it down to Snape or Tom Riddle (not Voldemort, but Riddle). I'm curious if anyone else thought that Riddle was also the Half-Blood Prince at first...?

It seemed that way, but I remember that JKR said that the HBP wasn't Harry or Voldemort/Tom.

I didn't like the fact that Dumbledore died, but it is a classic event in any fable or fairy tale. It was even shown in Star Wars, where Luke knew he needed to stand alone when Obi Wan was cut down by Darth Vader. Having seen Dumbledore die gives Harry justification to end all this madness. For once, there was a death in this series that wasn't Harry's "fault." Harry's parents died to protect him. Cedric died because Harry nobily decided they should both grasp the Goblet of Fire. Sirius died because Harry believed a false vision. Even Professor Quirrel (sp?) died because he touched Harry. Now, these aren't Harry's "fault," but they are all directly related to something to do directly with getting to Harry. Yes, Dumbledore was one of Harry's protectors, but it wasn't as if Dumbledore was physically in front of Harry to protect him. Harry had his invisibility cloak on and was bound by magic. I don't think anyone else knew he was up there, hidden and bound, due to the tense nature of the situation. I now believe that this was Dumbledore pushing Harry on to the next level. Like Ron in the giant chess match in PS/SS, sometimes you have to sacrifice yourself to win.

[hockeygod]

I haven't finished it yet, but have read the spoilers on here.

I think that Snape is on the side of the Order. I think that either he told Dumbledore what he had to do because of the Unbreakable Curse and didn't want to or that Dumbledore actually had told him (Snape) to kill him. Perhaps Dumbledore knew his time was short and that to protect Snape's cover as a Death Eater it would be necessary for Snape to kill him. That argument really sticks out to me.

As far as the Half Blood Prince, I thought it could have been Tom, or Snape, or even Dumbledore. I thought it could be the first two for obvious reasons. But I thought it could be Dumbledore because of Griselda Marchbanks when she was talking to Umbridge. she said that she had personally tested Dumbledore at N.E.W.T level and that he had done things with a wand in Transfiguration and Charms that she had never seen before. Thats why I thought it could of fit. Obviously though, he isn't the Half-Blood Prince.

This is my very favorite HP book even though I'm not done yet.

When I finish I'll be back with more ideas.

[EdinaBrya]

I haven't finished yet, but I just love this book!!!!!


Kathy

[Jerry]

1) Here's where Regulus Black is being discussed. Is it just me or does Sirius not seem so sure of himself?

QUOTE

"Oh, no," said Sirius. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."

Wasn't Sirius in Azkaban?! When did he found out? Who told him? Why is everything regarding Regulus so vague? Furthermore, it doesn't seem like Sirius is very concerned with details regarding his death or his whereabouts. He takes it for granted. This method had failed with Kreacher - Sirius thought he was somewhere around the house while he went to the Malfoys and and informed them of whatever was going on. I think that Sirius takes it for granted that Regulus Black died, without inquiring specifically when it did happen.

Coupled with the fact that JKR likes to surprise us, and the straightforward statement by R.A.B. - "To the Dark Lord - I know I will be dead long before you read this" I'm forced to conclude that the person is still alive and, also, that it is, indeed, referring to Regulus. Notice also the use of 'Dark Lord' - a death eater reference to Voldemort. Regulus was a death eater. That's unquestioned. But maybe he had faked his own death? After all, Peter Pettigrew did it. Barty Crouch Jr. did it. Why not Regulus?


I stumbled upon this too... It takes place in OotP, in the House of Black...

QUOTE

There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound,... until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open...

If I'm not mistaken, we may have stumbled onto something big here.


2) Following my belief above that HBP is a setup and keeping in mind that JKR likes to trick, surprise, and throw us all off the real plot, I can interpret the last paragraph of 'Flight of the Prince' in consistency.

QUOTE

Harry neither knew nor cared what the message meant. Only one thing mattered: This was not a horcrux. Dumbledore had weakened himself by drinking that terrible potion for nothing.

A subconscious plot to throw us off the real thing, IMHO. This is Harry's point of view. He's seen Snape plainly kill Dumbledore, what else can he think?

3) Also, what I think are the most important couple of lines in the book (in regards to book 7) can be interpreted in accordance with my theory (though I admit it's not very solid)

QUOTE

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus...please..." Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!"

Snape gazed at him. At him. By a little stretch of definiton and thinking why JKR chose the word 'gaze' and not 'look', we can find room to say that Snape was looking into Dumbledore's mind; into his soul. And saw that Dumbledore has become a horcrux. Right after this momentary gazing, there is "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Most people assume this hatred was directed at Dumbledore. I think it was directed at Voldemort. Snape was horrified to see a piece of Voldemort inside Dumbledore, and it filled him with immense hatred against Voldemort. (Recalling the argument that Hagrid had let slip in 'Elf Tails', "Dumbledore told him he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it." IMHO, Snape had told Dumbledore of the Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore then agreed that if it comes down to that, Snape should kill him, and not attempt to break the Unbreakable Vow.) Right after this hatred encompasses Snape, Dumbledore "reminds" him: "Severus... please" In other words, "Kill me! Don't blow your cover!" Armed with that hatred and with Dumbledore's final consent, Snape raises his wand, points it directly at Dumbledore, and has enough hatred and loathing directed to kill. As Dumbledore requested.
My last thought in this matter, though, is that Snape had not attempted to kill Dumbledore. He had attempted to destroy the horcrux. (Of course, he knew that that would take Dumbledore out, as well) This may explain why Dumbledore was blasted into the air, and not just slumped to the ground, or rolled over, dead. Because a part of Voldemort had been destroyed. Like the ring, like the diary, like Dumbledore, Voldemort's soul-pieces were not destroyed peacefully and quietly.

4) And a small part of me still keeps thinking that Snape never killed Dumbledore. The hatred that fueled the Avada Kedavra hit Voldemort's soul, not Dumbledore in the slightest. It couldn't kill him. The hatred, the driving force behind the curse just wasn't directed at Dumbledore. But the power of the destruction of the soul was so great, though, that Dumbledore was lifted backwords, causing him to fall down below. And the fall was what caused his death. Precarious, I know.

The evidence for a lot of this is very shaky and can be contradicted by other sources, I expect, but it's just my opinion.

Jerry, speculating and up too late

Edit #1: Just noticed the link cranberry27 gave. Seems like I'm not the only one with the Regulus, locket, and OotP thoughts. Thanks for shedding some light on my jumbled thoughts!

Edit #2: Okay, after reading that page from the link, I am absolutely, categorically, unequivocally certain that Snape, however greasy his hair may be, is on our side. And on Dumbledore's.

This post has been edited by Jerry: Jul 20 2005, 05:14 AM

[Drie]

I know not everyone here checks MuggleNet, but I found this to be a bit freaky:

QUOTE

Albus - In Latin means white (maybe for white beard). Wisdom. Or.. Governor of Britain at the death of the emperor Pertinax, Decimus Clodius Albinus (Albinus=Albus?) attempted to seize the throne but ended up as Caesar in alliance with another imperial contender, Septimius Severus. After Severus defeated two other rivals (Voldemort and... maybe Slytherin?), the now expendable Albinus was forced into another attempt at usurpation, an attempt that came to an end at the blo*dy battle of Lyon.

Check out the origin of other names here.

[Imogen]

What do we think of the idea that Harry's scar might be a horcrux?

I'm pondering it at the moment. Not Harry himself, but the scar. Possibly an unwitting horcrux. We know Voldie was probably going to create a new one with the killing of Harry. Might it have backfired slightly, and Harry's scar contains a morsel of Voldie's soul? We've always known it was significant - is this why?

I agree that the necklace at Grimmauld place is probably one. I also think the Snape theories are likely. Thanks Cranberry for the link to that LJ! Interesting reading.

[cranberry27]

I am liking the idea of Harry's scar as a horcrux more and more. What if Voldemort didn't actually perform a killing curse at all? Maybe that seventh split was all that was possible (with the magical number factor), and by pulling so much of his soul out, Voldemort was reduced to almost nothing after seven? He could have used James' death to make the horcrux, making Lily's death unnecessary, as JKR has recently emphasized that it was.

Nobody saw the killing curse being performed. They just assumed that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because he killed everybody. The prophecy didn't say he would kill, but merely "mark him." In OotP Voldemort tried to destroy Harry by having Dumbledore kill him. What if he was trying to set up the same scenario, assuming that his final battles would be against the strongest wizard he knew of? To defeat the horcrux Dumbledore must defeat the threat to Voldemort's power.

Amy

[Jerry]

That's very interesting. Harry's scar as a horcrux, hmm....
It may very well explain Harry's powerful connection to Voldermort's feelings. After all, it's Tom's soul! But that means that Harry will have to sacrifice himself for Voldemort's defeat to be complete, no? Unless there's another way to remove the scar... Anyway, if that's the case, does Voldemort know about this?

Regarding the Snape theories, I think I've got another tiny bit to add. (I couldn't find this anywhere.) Dumbledore's Death is recorded in Harry's PoV. Harry recalls Dumbledore saying "Severus....", and then "Severus...please...". I was thinking that within those three words Dumbledore had told Snape that he is a horcrux, by saying, "Severus, sever us, please...", saying that he and Voldemort's soul are now joined as one and he wants Snape to separate him from the soul. Harry, though, had simply recorded Snape's name twice. Just a thought.

Oh, and for someone else that stands for R.A.B. besides Regulus - What do you think of that girl that was taken by Tom Riddle to the cave when he was in the orphanage - Amy Benson? Is it possible that she had 'R' as a first initial and was really a witch?

@ Drie: Thanks for the quote. Freaky indeed.

[hockeygod]

Good point Jerry about the fact that it coulb have been "sever us" instead of "Severus". Very shrewd of you to pick up on that.

I've been thinking about Snape and the good vs. evil argument. Besides my other asrguments for him being good, he protected Harry. He wouldn't allow him to cast an Unforgivable. In a way, he was keeping him out of Azkaban. Also, he had a chance to really hurt Harry, not kill him, but hurt him. However, he didn't. He knocked Harry down, but it kept him from giving chase anymore. If he had kept chasing the Death Eaters, one of them might of killed him.

And Snape's anger didn't have to be aimed at Dumbledore. All Bellatrix says is that righteous anger won't do it. You have to have true hate and enjoy. Well for Snape, the hatred could come from anywhere: his childhood, his years at Hogwarts, even being in Tom's service. And I wonder if the enjoyment part is just second nature for Death Eaters. If you kill enough it would almost have to.

These are just some thoughts to mull over.

[zyguh]

Well, after reading it for the fourth time, and parts of it who knows how many times (lol......I swear I just pick it up to reread one passage and the next thing I know its four hours later and Ive read it from that point to the end).....I actually think that the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape was that he made Snape take an Unbreakable Vow when Snape came to him for help. I dont think JK would have made such a point of having Ron describe almost taking an unbreakable vow as a kid for any other reason. She put that in, and it just really stuck out (since it was Ron describing the magic instead of Hermoine for a change)....there had to be a larger reason that had to do with Unbreakable Vows. I think that the vow was that Snape would always follow Dumbledores orders. Thats why the argument Hagrid overheard, because Dumbledore told Snape he should kill him instead of Malfoy if it ever reached that point. And Snape had no choice because he made an Unbreakable Vow to follow Dumbledore's orders.

I dont know if Dumbledore will be back "alive" again (I still hope that because of his phoenix and the whole phoenix being reborn thing that he will) BUT......not only will there be a portrait Dumbledore....but has anyone thought of the chocalate frog cards? :-)

He is free to visit any of his portraits right? So that should include the cards....and in OoTP Bill made a point of saying that Dumbledore didnt care he was stripped of his Order of Merlin and kicked of the Wizengomett as long as they dont take him off the frog cards. I bet anything that Dumbledore will be travelling all over the wizard world in the next book via all those cards, and that Harry will be able to carry one with him to always have him there for advice.

The other four horcruxes are the snake, the cup with the badger, the locket of slytherins, and one thing that would have been hidden in Hogwarts before Harry was even born. I dont think it can be Harry's scar(although it may have been, and thats why he needed Harry's blood to be reborn....but if thats the case then that part of his soul cant still be in Harry, so it cant be the scar).

I think its the sorting hat. I think the hat might be the Ravenclaw artifact. It would be one thing that he would have to be a teacher to get access too. As head boy he might have been able to get access to it, and have made it the horcrux, but the only way to get access now would have been to be a teacher. That would also explain why he didnt just go get the horcrux the night he met with Dumbledore....if it had been any place else in the school he could have just gone and got it. But the sorting hat is always kept in the headmasters office, so whatever he was after at the school had to be in that office or he would have just taken it that night. Anyway....guess we will know in SOOOOOBBBBBBB, 2 years............

That locket that Ginny saw in the case at Grimmauld place was probably Slytehrins locket , and I bet Mundugus already sold it. Who knows where the cup is (anyone want to bet on it being transfigured into the Quidditch World Cup :-) )

And as far as endings go.......you know that all wishes to be an Auror aside, Harry has to end up teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts at Hogwarts someday, right? I mean, thats just the one thing thats been fated to happen since book one.

Any bets on how it all gets tied up? Harry teaches Dark Arts, Hermoine is Minister of Magic, and Ron is keeper, and Ginny Seeker for the Chudley Cannons who win the Quidditch World Cup. Thats my vote, anyone else?