Hbp - What Did You Think?, Spoilers within Options

[hockeygod]

I would like to point out that the Sorting Hat was Gryffindor's. In Harry's first year, the Sorting Hat sings that Gryffindor swept him off his head.

I like the idea of that being the fourth Horcrux though.

[Jerry]

Ok, let's try to put in into facts:

The horcruxes that we are absolutely sure that were destroyed are:

1) The Diary - and that's destroyed
2) The Ring - and that's destroyed, as well

The horcrux that we are absolutely sure that still exists is:

3) Voldemort's own soul, inside his body

Dumbledore's speculated horcruxes:

4) Slytherin's locket

5) Hufflepuff's Cup

6) Nagini

7) ?

People's speculated horcruxes (as to what #7 is):

Harry's Scar / Dumbledore himself

I personally don't think that Harry's scar is a horcrux, currently. The reason for that is because I do believe that Dumbledore was a horcrux. My attempted explanation is that we saw how weakened Dumbledore became from drinking the potion and from other effects (in other words, whatever happened to make him into the horcrux, according to my theory). He ended up dying. If Harry's scar is a horcrux, wouldn't it give him unbearable agony every waking moment? Think about it. A part of an absolutely emotionless creature is part of himself - a being full of emotion and love. I don't think that Harry would last too long if that were the case.

As for Nagini, I agree with Dumbledore. Nagini is a horcrux, and a pretty useful one at that. The same goes for the locket.

Regarding the Sorting Hat, I don't think it's a horcrux, simply because of the disdain that the 'Diary Riddle' showed towards it in CoS, when Fawkes swept the Hat into Harry's hands. "This is what Dumbledore sends his defender?" he sneered. (Or something to that extent.) Which brings me to my next point. I'm almost sure that Voldemort did not use a Gryffindor-related item as a horcurx (the sorting hat included; thanks Andrew for pointing that out), even if that means I'm saying Dumbledore was wrong.

I don't think Hufflepuff's cup was was used as a horcrux, either. I don't know why. It's just a gut feeling I have that Voldemort wouldn't want anything that didn't relate to Slytherin, even if it had immense magical powers, and even if, again, that means that Dumbledore was mistaken. I know that it had vanished, together with the locket, but I don't think it was used as a horcrux.

Now, that presents us with a bit of a dilemma. We've lost a potential horcrux. But, after reading Book 2 cover to cover again, I think I've found another horcrux. Ginny.

QUOTE

If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted.... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkets secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets to start pouring a little of my soul back into her...

The diary is gone, yes. But who says that the fragment of the soul that was injected into Ginny is?

(I can think of two refutations to this:

1) When the diary was destroyed, whatever it caused was erased, including the fragment of Voldemort's soul that was incorporated into Ginny from the diary.

2) The diary was a horcux, not the original soul. And the original soul can be split, not an existing horcrux.

But neither of the aforementioned refutations satisfy me, because maybe Voldemort's horcrux was so powerful was that it, in itself, could split, and even if the source (diary) was gone, the fragment that split into Ginny remained, becoming a new, totally separate horcrux.)

Just some thoughts.

[sockless]

That's a really interesting point about Ginny being a horcrux. But then would that mean that Harry would have to kill her? I dont think that JK would do that to him.
However I really like zyguh's ending for the books. That's the way it should be.

[Jerry]

QUOTE (sockless @ Jul 23 2005, 11:22 PM)

That's a really interesting point about Ginny being a horcrux. But then would that mean that Harry would have to kill her? I dont think that JK would do that to him.

I think that that is just the thing JKR would do. Choosing between love and eternal destruction of Voldemort, even though love is the key to destroy Voldemort - kinda fused together in a paradoxically sort of way. Maybe it's a bit harsh (and possibly sadistic), but hey, it's just a speculation

And if Harry's scar is a horcrux, he'd also have to die, don't you agree?

p.s. Hi Sockless!

[QuickHare]

Oh, whole-heartedly.

*nudges Yoda as if to say "What is he talking about?"*

As a slight aside (of which can be ignored once answered), does anyone have an idea when the next HP book is due out? I guess JKR hasn't set an actual date, but maybe she knows of the month and year?

[hershey]

QUOTE (QuickHare @ Jul 24 2005, 04:43 PM)

Oh, whole-heartedly. *nudges Yoda as if to say "What is he talking about?"* As a slight aside (of which can be ignored once answered), does anyone have an idea when the next HP book is due out? I guess JKR hasn't set an actual date, but maybe she knows of the month and year?

A news program here said she was planning on starting Book 7 this fall. Barring any more babies ... I would hazzard to guess sometime in 2007.

~H~

[hershey]

QUOTE (Elenarda @ Jul 17 2005, 05:47 AM)

Do you think Hogwarts is going to close next year? Might be handier for Harry and co if it does, because then at least they'll have supportive people around to help in their quest for the horcruxes next year.

I think I have the answer for this. I just finished watching the Biography program on JKR and Harry Potter. In the very last segment she shows the package which contains the last chapter of Book 7. She states, " I feel rather dubious about showing you this. I don't know why." and then just a bit later she states that it is just a synopsis of what happens to everyone "after they finish school, those that survive that is." I would have to conclude that Hogwarts will be open for their final year.

Ha, I was so excited to here this I ran straight away to post.

~H~

[sockless]

QUOTE (Jerry @ Jul 23 2005, 11:31 PM)

QUOTE (sockless @ Jul 23 2005, 11:22 PM) That's a really interesting point about Ginny being a horcrux. But then would that mean that Harry would have to kill her? I dont think that JK would do that to him. I think that that is just the thing JKR would do. Choosing between love and eternal destruction of Voldemort, even though love is the key to destroy Voldemort - kinda fused together in a paradoxically sort of way. Maybe it's a bit harsh (and possibly sadistic), but hey, it's just a speculation And if Harry's scar is a horcrux, he'd also have to die, don't you agree? p.s. Hi Sockless!

NoooooooooooooOoOoOoOoOoooooooo! I have a rule for movies where the hero/ heroine is not aloud to die. Same rule applys here. so there! Ha!


Hello dear Jerry!

[hershey]

I think the end of GoF disproves the possibility of Harry's scar being a Horcrux. Voldemort at the end of chapter 24 says

QUOTE

Stand aside! I will kill him! He is mine!"

If part of Voldie's soul was incased in Harry, even if unintentionally, wouldn't Voldie be able to see that using Legillimens? He certainly would not want to kill of part of himself.

Additionally, of the confirmed Horcruxes we know, all of them are inanimate objects, the only exception being Nagini. The idea of a person being a Horcrux seems to deviate from an established pattern thus far.

Hmmm, the speculations continue...

~H~

[Jerry]

You said it yourself, Hershey. Nagini is an exception. Who says she's the only one? I personally don't support the theory that Harry's scar or Harry himself is a horcrux because of what you and Imogen said - that Voldemort would not want to kill Harry if that were the case. But Dumbledore being a horcrux is still a possibility, no?

BTW, anyone noticed that the "jinx" on the DADA teachers continued? I just realized it yesterday. Snape's now gone, and probably will be, from Hogwarts.

[Drie]

Here's some interesting information from Entertainment Weekly's newest issue on Good!Snape vs. Bad!Snape. Should we continue the debate??? Also, EW suggests the possibility of the Sorting Hat as another horcrux, as it had been Gryffindor's hat before he enchanted it to sort the incoming students into Hogwarts. Any thoughts?

QUOTE

Snape vs. Snape Two opposing views on just whose side Harry's nemesis is on by Paul Katz and Michelle Kung Bad Snape Severus Snape kills Dumbledore using ''Avada Kedavra,'' a you-gotta-mean-it-for-it-to-work Unforgivable Curse. Once a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater, always a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater. He's a master of Occlumency, the ''magical defense of the mind against external penetration.'' Few can see through his lies. Despite ''trusting'' Snape, Dumbledore refrains from appointing his former pupil Professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts for years. The second he gets the job? Death all around. Dumbledore admits that being ''rather cleverer than most men,'' his mistakes are ''correspondingly huger.'' Trusting a man who's betrayed him before? Huge mistake. Harry's been saying it all along. Good Snape Snape must fulfill his do-or-die Unbreakable Vow to protect Dumbledore's would-be assassin, Draco Malfoy — preserving his cover as a double agent. So he reluctantly kills the Hogwarts headmaster only to continue spying on Voldemort for the Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore was ordering Snape to kill him, not begging for his life. He'd never beg! Even while battling Harry, Snape reminds him to ''keep your mouth shut and your mind closed'' — sound advice for his former Occlumency pupil. Plus, Snape has rescued Harry several times — however begrudgingly — and even tells the Death Eaters in book 6 to hold off on killing him, supposedly under Voldemort's ''orders.'' Dumbledore trusts him ''completely.'' That's good enough for us. (Posted:07/22/05)

[hershey]

QUOTE (sockless @ Jul 23 2005, 11:22 PM)

That's a really interesting point about Ginny being a horcrux. But then would that mean that Harry would have to kill her? I dont think that JK would do that to him.

I copied the following from a post at PSnet. It is an excerpt from the third installment of the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview with JKR ( a must read btw). It pretty much eliminates the theory of Ginny being a Horcrux.

QUOTE

MA: Someone put it to me last night, that if Ginny, with the diary - JKR: Harry definitely destroyed that piece of soul, you saw it take shape, you saw it destroyed, it’s gone. And Ginny is definitely in no way possessed by Voldemort. MA: Is she still a parselmouth? JKR: No. MA: Does she have a life debt to Harry from book two? JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different...

The Interview

This post has been edited by hershey: Jul 28 2005, 01:05 AM

[sockless]

I had a thought last night. Throughout the entire series up to book six Harry and Ron always believe the worst of Snape with Hermione always insisting that he is trust-worthy because of his teacher status and that Dumbledor trusts him. I book 6 it's fliped however un- knowingly. Harry and Ron are getting help from the "Half Blood Prince" and Hermione doesnt turt him an inch. I thought that was interesting.

p.s Yay for Hershey for finding that little goodie!

[Jerry]

Thanks for the quote Drie. I'll try to dissect it. Of course, anyone who wants to reject my explanations and theories is welcome to do so.

Bearing in mind, however, that I believe Snape is innocent, naturally, I'll try to defend him.

1)

QUOTE

Severus Snape kills Dumbledore using ''Avada Kedavra,'' a you-gotta-mean-it-for-it-to-work Unforgivable Curse.

Avada Kedavra needs hatred for it to work. There's no doubt about that. But it may not have been directed at Dumbledore. It may have been directed at Voldemort, or at Snape himself. I don't believe that it says anywhere that Avada Kedavra has to be directed at someone specific. What I think is a clear proof to this theory is the fact that, at the end of OoTP, Voldemort sends a killing curse at Dumbledore, yet Fawkes "dies" (or becomes a baby phoenix once more, as Fawkes can't die.) when he intercepts it. In any case, I don't think Avada Kedavra has to be aimed at something specific. If you have the power and necessary hatred, you can point your wand at a tree, say the words, and the tree will be reduced to sawdust, IMHO. Keeping that fact in mind, we can attempt to say that the hatred was directed at Voldemort, that, indirectly, caused Snape to kill Dumbledore. ("Indirectly" = the fact that Voldemort placed upon Draco to kill Dumbledore, and Snape was forced to perform an Unbreakable Vow, lest Bellatrix (and possibly Narcissa) would become even more suspicious of him. And in the end, under the Vow, Snape needed to kill Dumbledore.) Or we can say that Snape is filled with self-loathing because of the deed that he needs now to do. In either case, the text in the book supports the claim that he contained hatred - "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." - what the hatred was directed at is a matter of speculation.
Therefore, I agree with EW's quote:

QUOTE

Snape must fulfill his do-or-die Unbreakable Vow to protect Dumbledore's would-be assassin, Draco Malfoy — preserving his cover as a double agent. So he reluctantly kills the Hogwarts headmaster only to continue spying on Voldemort for the Order of the Phoenix.

Actually, thinking along these lines lead me to think: Maybe Avada Kedavra works in the form of crumpling and instantly killing its victims only when its directed at its target, but if it hits an indirect target, it shatters, explodes, and erupts? Everywhere in the book (everywhere I looked, at least) where it recorded a properly-aimed Avada Kedavra, the victim crumpled and died - Frank Bryce, Cedric, the fake Moody's spider, Sirius, But when Voldemort aimed it at Dumbledore (in OoTP) and hit Fawkes and the security guard's desk instead, they burst into flame. Maybe it's the same with Snape and Dumbledore. The hatred fueling the curse wasn't really intended for Dumbledore, so maybe that's why he was blasted into the air... Unlikely, I know. (And logically, it should be the opposite, if you think about it) But it's pretty interesting to note. Or maybe it's the fact that Dumbledore is probably the most powerful wizard alive. To transform this magical 'powerhouse' into nothing (in other words, to kill Dumbledore), it takes a great deal of blasts, eruptions, etc and it won't be taken down quietly....

2)

QUOTE

Once a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater, always a Voldemort-lovin', half-blood-hatin' Death Eater.

Interesting. But a weak argument, IMHO. Two clear exceptions that I think I identified correctly are Regulus Black and Peter Pettigrew; the former backing out at the last minute, and the latter being what Voldemort himself considers someone who's loyalty wavered. (First chapter in GoF, IIRC)

3)

QUOTE

Dumbledore was ordering Snape to kill him, not begging for his life. He'd never beg!

Quite correct, IMHO. Dumbledore doesn't beg. It's just not him.
To clarify, I want to first say that I've rejected three of my previous theories: 1) that Dumbledore became a horcrux; 2) that Dumbledore said, "Sever us, please"; and 3) that R.A.B. is still alive.
I now think that the potion was simply a lethal drink, but only after a certain amount of time. Dumbledore himself thinks so - "I'm sorry, Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island."
Dumbledore knew he wouldn't last long after drinking the potion. He was on his deathbed since the first sip. But that's why he wanted Snape to kill him. He knew that if he would die, Draco would fail in his mission. Meaning that Snape would die, via the Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore realized that he was going to die that night anyway, why not make it as if Snape killed him? It would accomplish a number of things: It would prevent Draco from being a murderer. it would keep Snape's cover; it would stop Dumbledore's obvious agony that he's in, since when he drank that potion. Also, this brings back the point of "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore" - he gazed at him, using Legilimency. And he read Dumbledore's mind that he wants to be killed by Snape. So that's what Snape did.

4)

QUOTE

He's a master of Occlumency, the ''magical defense of the mind against external penetration.'' Few can see through his lies.

Dumbledore, anyone?

5)

QUOTE

Despite ''trusting'' Snape, Dumbledore refrains from appointing his former pupil Professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts for years. The second he gets the job? Death all around.

I don't have an answer for this yet. All I can attempt to say is "So what, what's the connection?" but I agree that it's a feeble attempt.

6)

QUOTE

Dumbledore admits that being ''rather cleverer than most men,'' his mistakes are ''correspondingly huger.'' Trusting a man who's betrayed him before? Huge mistake. Harry's been saying it all along.

No offense to Harry, but I'd take Dumbledore's word against anyone's. And I think that what Dumbledore was referring to in his above admission, was the specific fact that he didn't tell Harry about the Prophecy and his destiny up until last year, not that he may have made a mistake in trusting somebody or not.

7)

QUOTE

Even while battling Harry, Snape reminds him to ''keep your mouth shut and your mind closed'' - sound advice for his former Occlumency pupil. Plus, Snape has rescued Harry several times, however begrudgingly, and even tells the Death Eaters in book 6 to hold off on killing him, supposedly under Voldemort's ''orders.''

I couldn't have said it any better.

And, finally:
8)

QUOTE

Dumbledore trusts him ''completely.'' That's good enough for us.

And for me, too.

Again, these are just my thoughts. Please feel free to interpret the respective scenarios differently.

Thanks for the interview, Hershey.

This post has been edited by Jerry: Jul 28 2005, 03:56 AM

[hershey]

More things to ponder. The questions Jo wouldn't answer from the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview, which I think it's fair to reason that they hit too close to bits of Book 7.

* If looking into the Mirror of Erised, what would Dumbledore see?
* What would a Boggart change into in front of Dumbledore?
* Did Sirus' brother, Regulus, have another mirror?
* What was that spell that Dumbledore attempted against Voldie at the Ministry in OOTP?
* Is Grindelwald important in the final book?
* Will the locked room in the Dept of Mysteries be revisted?
* Was there anyone else in Godric Hollow the night Voldemort killed the Potter's?

Oh it's late and that is all I can manage for now. All of the above questions are paraphased from the interview of JKR by Emerson and Melissa, the transcript can be found at their websites (see link in previous post).

JKR neither truly confirms or denies that R.A.B.' s identity is Regulus Black, but simply states "that would be a fine guess." That seems pretty affirmative for me.

Off to dream of more HP speculations,
~H~